Saber throw

#1
Many people have complained about saber throw being "broken" for a while. I can recall plenty of times where I've saberthrown someone IN THE BACK and gotten deflected, and then they turn around and throw their saber at my front and it FUCKING ONESHOTS me. After Alpha had an extremely Chinese saber today and got fucked on every saber throw, I decided to experiment with saber throw a bit. Turns out, it's pretty fucked up. Saber throw damage is basically random.

Test 1: throwing at a gunner
I did a test where I had a Cargo Wookiee stand in one spot of the map and had a D Jedi stand straight in front of him. I used teleport binds and didn't move my mouse at all (I bound +altattack to the keyboard), so that I could saber throw with the exact same conditions every time. Throwing four times under identical conditions, the HW had resulting HPs of:
  • 27
  • 67
  • 11
  • 59
What the fuck? How can the exact same throw (same positions, same aim, etc.) do vastly different damage every time? It's not just random, it's all over the place. That's a huge discrepancy. It was probably even worse back when we had location-based damage for saber.

Test 2: throwing at a saberist
Throwing against a jedi is even worse. For one, if you have a saber throw level that is lower than the target's saber defense level (happens on Cargo and Urban), there is a random calculation as to whether you get disarmed. I mean the game literally calls a function that picks a random number between 1 and 10, and if the chosen number is ≤ 4, you get disarmed. However, in my testing, even when I disabled this random roll behavior, it was STILL totally random whether your saber did damage or not. Similar to the Cargo test above, throwing my saber at an enemy jedi in the exact same spot repeatedly, sometimes I did damage and sometimes I didn't. So basically, sometimes you roll 40% for disarm, sometimes you do damage, and sometimes you do nothing at all. It's all over the place.

Why does this happen?
I don't really know. The saber code is a gigantic spaghetti mess and I don't really feel like trying to decipher it. Maybe Alpha or someone with more sabering experience can explain why. Perhaps it has something to do with nanometer variations in animation frames, or string theory or some shit. But as far as I'm concerned, this damage is all completely fucking random. The 100% same exact throw done multiple times should not have wildly different random results each time.

How can we improve this?
I'm open to ideas for how to improve this system. Here is my own idea: first of all, we completely trash the existing damage and blocking logic for throws and replace it with a brand new system. Under the new system, certain conditions are checked, and points are added based on these conditions. Higher points means the attack will be more successful; lower points means the attack won't be very effective.
  • Is the target being pulled/pushed? If yes, +1 point.
  • Is the target in a special hand/arm animation (e.g. hacking a panel, demp animation locked in a funny pose, etc.)? If yes, +1 point.
  • Is the target moving toward the thrown saber? If yes, +1 point. (Note: this includes movement caused by pull!)
  • Is the saber hitting a saberist within a 12 degree cone of their vision? (Is the target looking precisely at the incoming saber? This is the same cone used for level 1 defense's disrupt blocking.) If yes, -2 points.
  • Is the saber hitting a saberist beyond a 146 degree cone of their vision? (Is the target basically not looking at the saber at all? This is the same cone used for level 3 defense's disrupt blocking.) If yes, +2 points.
  • Is the target a saberist who is currently swinging a saber? If yes, +1 point.
  • Is the target ≥10m away from the point at which the throw originated? If yes, +1 point (rewards high skill MLG saberthrow snipes).

Against saberists:
≥ 2 points: 50 damage
1 point: 25 damage
0 points: 15 damage
-1 points: 5 damage
≤ -2 points: 0 damage (blocked)

Against gunners:
≥ 1 point: 100 damage
0 points: 60 damage
≤ -1 points: 30 damage

So by using the above criteria, you can figure out various scenarios and see how much damage it would cause. No randomness, just simple cause-and-effect.

This is just a prototype idea I came up with today; totally WIP. I'm open to feedback or alternative suggestions. As far as I'm concerned, virtually any idea would be better than this random ass bullshit system we currently have. Let me know what you think.

Re: Saber throw

#2
Duo wrote:Is the target being pulled/pushed? If yes, +1 point.
TBH I don't like that. Push/pull is strong enough now - it unarms jedi and pulls enemy to you. Also it punishes you for not using push/pull and sometimes it is nice to risk saber throw only to not waste force on push/pull. It
Duo wrote:Is the target in a special hand/arm animation (e.g. hacking a panel, demp animation locked in a funny pose, etc.)? If yes, +1 point.
Why?

Re: Saber throw

#3
Grab wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:58 am
Duo wrote:Is the target being pulled/pushed? If yes, +1 point.
TBH I don't like that. Push/pull is strong enough now - it unarms jedi and pulls enemy to you. Also it punishes you for not using push/pull and sometimes it is nice to risk saber throw only to not waste force on push/pull. It
Already affects saber block
Grab wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:58 am
Duo wrote:Is the target in a special hand/arm animation (e.g. hacking a panel, demp animation locked in a funny pose, etc.)? If yes, +1 point.
Why?
Already affects saber block

Re: Saber throw

#4
Duo wrote:Already affects saber block
:thinking:
Using your system means that saberthrowing gunner that is running away will deal 60 dmg only and this is not how it works now.
Can't you just make it deal always 100 damage agaisnt gunners and fix logic for saberists?
Saber throw damage agaisnt saberists = 50
Hit while being disarmed/pushed/pulled = full damage
Hit while swinging = half damage and/or block maybe? This is how lightsabers would work. Also it might recude gay pullthrow fagging.
Hit while looking at throwing dude within a 12 degree cone of their vision = block
Hit while not looking at throwing dude = full or half damage

Re: Saber throw

#6
Saber throw is the easiest and least risky move as a Jedi with throw 2+, I'd be careful before making it more effective. Equally intentionally rewarding pullthrows with extra damage seems counter productive as they are easier to land, quicker and break a saber block. Also there is an element of skill to maximising ST damage with 2+ throwing even if there is a pretty big variance. I know it's WIP but your system atm makes pull throw instant kill on 50 HP Jedi that aren't looking within 12 degrees of the saber. Any new system should respect base behaviour imo, so should include references to throw ability and saber block ability. Other than blocking from behind I don't really consider ST "broken".

Re: Saber throw

#7
Black wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm
Saber throw is the easiest and least risky move as a Jedi with throw 2+, I'd be careful before making it more effective.
Where did I make it more effective?
Black wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm
Equally intentionally rewarding pullthrows with extra damage seems counter productive as they are easier to land, quicker and break a saber block.
Pullthrows are already rewarded.
Black wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm
I know it's WIP but your system atm makes pull throw instant kill on 50 HP Jedi that aren't looking within 12 degrees of the saber.
The fuck? No. Read.
Black wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm
Any new system should respect base behaviour imo
  • "Stop rewarding pull"
  • "Respect base behavior"
Pick one.
Black wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm
Other than blocking from behind I don't really consider ST "broken".
I don't think you read my tests then. Damage is completely fucking random, and disarm is literal RNG.

Your entire post is tantamount to trolling. Good one dude you got me hahahaha

Re: Saber throw

#8
I think there are a couple of misunderstandings going on here. First, this new system would completely replace the current one. That means pulling has now no effect on the target, unless you specifically include it as + points in the new system.

Though I think grab raised a good point, and pushthrow should be exempt from the penalty that is inflicted if the target is moving away. After all, push is the more skillful move not pull, so maybe that should be taken into account.

I am not against reworking this system btw, and I think we as a community have already came up with amazing new systems for siege that work infinitely better than basejk behaviour (like saber blocking for snipe shots), so I am curious where we can bring this to!

I think the biggest change is definitely the guaranteed dmg, although I can see it completely changing jedi v jedi combat. From personal experience I don't think maintaining crosshair lock on the enemy in the specified 12 degree cone is very hard (I know it can be changed), but that would maybe for the combatants to actually try and fight with saber properly? Would be interesting to see..

Re: Saber throw

#9
I mean to be fair saber throwing is one of the few things I actually rate myself at now, I can pretty consistently get one shots. For you to just call it broken because you can't see there is variance and also skill to executing it because you stood still and chucked a saber at a motionless figure isn't great and I'd much rather it stayed as is.

Addressing your questions directly 1: "100hp dmg is also an option, +your whole post would make pullthrowing a 1 hit kill machine unless you happen to be a saberist facing within 12 degrees. 2: read the second half of your quote to see I acknowledged that already, guaranteeing extra dmg due to being pulled is wrong. 3: Would a pull throw not satisfy criteria 1 and 3? thus making the ≥ 2 points: 50 damage unless it was negated by 12 degrees which would: 0 points: 15 damage. 4. Nowhere did I say stop rewarding pull, I said adding extra weight in a guaranteed manner to pulling an opponent in terms of damage dealt is the wrong way to go about changes. What I mean by respecting base behaviour is the intentional attributes given by the devs i.e. the weight given to force points in block and saber throw should also be given weight in any changes to the system. 5. Generally I answered already but what's wrong with RNG in certain circumstances? If you have throw 1 you risk losing your saber either fight without throwing or take the risk.

This whole post is about dumbing down and standardising which makes me wholly against changes to the system as is.

Re: Saber throw

#10
hannah wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:44 pm
I think the biggest change is definitely the guaranteed dmg, although I can see it completely changing jedi v jedi combat. From personal experience I don't think maintaining crosshair lock on the enemy in the specified 12 degree cone is very hard (I know it can be changed), but that would maybe for the combatants to actually try and fight with saber properly? Would be interesting to see..
This is a very good point you can't fight with your saber while looking within 12 degrees since you look away for your swing hence my feeling the changes will reduce the impact of skill not increase it, since throwing is generally the lowest skilled play for a Jedi.
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