Hoth 2nd obj

#1
Image


Some possible ideas to make it harder to rush:
  • Add a delay to the large doors opening
  • Make the doors open more slowly
  • Add a red forcefield to the hack itself, which would be removed after a delay

Some possible ideas to make it easier to complete normally:
  • Start with ion already opened
  • Make ion hack shorter and hackable with any class
  • Add a health generator in cave, so that offense can attack from cave at full health
  • Remove the turrets
  • Add a small rock path that gunners (but not the ATST) can use to cross the pit
  • Alter the map design around the hack to make it easier to get to for offense
  • Alter the map design around the hack to make it harder to spam for defense
  • Alter the map design around the hack to make it impossible to completely shield off

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#2
Some possible ideas to make it harder to rush:
  • Put teleport from obj1 bunker to obj2
Some possible ideas to make it easier to complete normally:
  • fast ion hack
  • reduce turrets hp by 50%
  • delete inner rockts in the cave

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#3
I am happy to see this thread pop up, since it was me playing on d jedi in both games with the ~8 min hold, and if we finally make some changes as a result of that I'm happy. The truth is, obj2 is horribly designed, and I sincerely doubt if a new map would come up with a layout design like that it would be accepted.

But if we don't intend to change the layout, then I would suggest the followings:
  • Add a forcefield blocking the hack, making rushing entirely impossible.
  • Significantly lower defence turret health, so they are a lot faster to dispose of.
  • Remove ion hack, and have it opened by default.
  • Add health dispensers so that the absolute must have class, jedi does not get entirely raped by d tech.
  • Significantly lower the health of all the rubbish in the cave, so they are at most 1 or 2 shots.
I am also willing to discuss ideas changing the layout, but I'm not sure if at this point we are going to go down that route so I'm choosing to be lazy here.

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#4
Some possible ideas to make it harder to rush:

Add a delay to the large doors opening
Make the doors open more slowly
Add a red forcefield to the hack itself, which would be removed after a delay best one i think


Some possible ideas to make it easier to complete normally:

Start with ion already opened
Make ion hack shorter and hackable with any class best
Add a health generator in cave, so that offense can attack from cave at full health best
Remove the turrets
Add a small rock path that gunners (but not the ATST) can use to cross the pit
Alter the map design around the hack to make it easier to get to for offense
Alter the map design around the hack to make it harder to spam for defense
Alter the map design around the hack to make it impossible to completely shield off
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I propose to remove bunker completely to prevent blocking it with shield, leave just hack as it is. Jan will be still needed to prevent being raped from walker.

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#5
So I read these suggestions and I honestly don't think any of them achieve the making it easier part, at least not in a meaningful way. It's a difficult one too I've generally been of the opinion that it's a part of the game (rushing) and I've also felt that an organised attack can complete the objective quickly, I've often seen it done in less than 2 mins without a rush. I definitely wouldn't consider 5+mins normal. But if it's a problem and one that people want to fix I get that.

I see 2 ways to get around it without also altering other objectives gameplay too much which is a big consideration.

1. Literally remove the objective. Self explanatory mostly of course this would require some anti rush but I don't think removing the bridge objective would be hugely detrimental to the map, no one really likes it and we have 2 outside objectives and a lot of the time it takes less than 1 minute total of the maps gameplay for 2 rounds.

2. Maybe you still want an objective between 1 and the generator. The primary enemies on this objective are distance, demp and a big gap. Cave and ion are still pretty non viable mostly because of the time it takes and the damage you receive on the way, the health dispenser in the cave was an interesting call. However, I'm not sure it goes far enough.

In my other idea the objective would be exactly the same except for one thing the bridge would start extended and the console would deactivate a protective shield around the generator. This would certainly make the objective easier (perhaps too easy but perhaps not). It's also super easy to give this a couple of test runs, there is already protection around the generator no brush work required at all to check whether this is a more balanced objective (except some possible rush proofing or maybe no rush proofing so it would be like famine or light lunch).

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#6
Black wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:01 pm
I've often seen it done in less than 2 mins without a rush. I definitely wouldn't consider 5+mins normal. But if it's a problem and one that people want to fix I get that.

That's because in those games people go tech+gunner on defence, freely letting jedi jump across the pit. In both of those ~8 min holds I just ran d jedi with a tech, and it's uncontestable. Ever since saber rework o scouts are zero threat towards d jedi, and you even get 2 turrets to nicely hide behind. There is just no comp o can run: 2nd jedi is still subject to demp and push, and an o tech is not going to kill d jedi within 1 spawn. As far as I recall in both games the only reason we even lost the objective is because I got bored and got max'd or something. D jedi is an absolute beast there, just freely exploiting the terrible layout.
Black wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:01 pm
1. Literally remove the objective. Self explanatory mostly of course this would require some anti rush but I don't think removing the bridge objective would be hugely detrimental to the map, no one really likes it and we have 2 outside objectives and a lot of the time it takes less than 1 minute total of the maps gameplay for 2 rounds.

2. Maybe you still want an objective between 1 and the generator. The primary enemies on this objective are distance, demp and a big gap. Cave and ion are still pretty non viable mostly because of the time it takes and the damage you receive on the way, the health dispenser in the cave was an interesting call. However, I'm not sure it goes far enough.
I don't think we should remove objectives at this point. It's been there for so much time, no harm in experimenting first. I agree that this is a layout issue but realistically that wouldn't be very easy to change. (Think duo lost the map file.)

Black wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:01 pm
In my other idea the objective would be exactly the same except for one thing the bridge would start extended and the console would deactivate a protective shield around the generator. This would certainly make the objective easier (perhaps too easy but perhaps not). It's also super easy to give this a couple of test runs, there is already protection around the generator no brush work required at all to check whether this is a more balanced objective (except some possible rush proofing or maybe no rush proofing so it would be like famine or light lunch).

I think this sounds interesting, but o could just bring the walker across. I'm not sure I like that idea.

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#7
D jedi isn't just some god against scout now. I'm pretty confident in scout vs d jedi 1v1 at most objs. But there are several other factors at play that make the d jedi meta viable at 2nd obj specifically, which have nothing to do with any saber changes:

1. Demp. This is the #1 thing that makes the d jedi comp viable. It's because the d jedi can just stall the o jedi all day long while the o jedi takes continuous demp damage. The stalling power of d jedi to allow for constant demp damage is the absolute #1 more powerful thing about d jedi at 2nd obj. The o jedi is eventually forced to just go because he is low HP and the spawn is coming up.

2. Turret hitboxes. It's such a waste of time to try to tenloss the d jedi simply because the turret hitboxes are fucked and they tank shots that would have otherwise the jedi. It's super frustrating as an o lando watching perfect snipes hit an invisible wall. Because of this, you can't really snipe the jedi if he is hard hugging a turret for cover. You can only snipe him if he gets substantially baited out of cover by your o jedi, which leads me to point #3....

3. O jedi players simply not knowing how to play this obj effectively. The counter always needs time to develop to handle a new meta, and it hasn't happened yet. For example, when the D jedi is camping one side and I'm on the other side trying to get an angle to snipe him, my O jedi needs to either (A) rotate to my side, or (B) go cave. 99% of the time, my jedi simply stays in the same spot taking continuous demp damage and not baiting the jedi out where I can get a clear shot, which is the absolute worst way to play this situation as an o jedi. This isn't Korriban blue crystal where you have time to play mind games and slow-play it; you HAVE TO GO because of demp. Anyway, yeah, people don't know how to play it as jedi. Even if I go o jan and freeze the d jan constantly and tell my jedi to go cave, my jedi will still usually get fucked by saber ONCE and then give up after that single attempt, even though what they did was still an infinitely better approach then just continuing to jump at the jedi across the pit while being demped.

The 2nd obj has always been fucked, but finally finding a new way to defend it even more optimally brings out the fuckedness on a new level.

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#8
Yeah honestly I'm not that great on this objective either when it's 2v2. Demp is so necessary but also so OP on this objective that it's really hard without totally fundamental changes which is why I like the bridge extended idea. The only other idea that has legs that I've seen here is a health station in the cave. Because, let's be honest, ion being hacked barely makes a difference with obj 2. It really only has an effect if the defence is negligent. Turrets are destroyed early so reducing their HP is pretty useless.

Hannah bringing the walker across was the idea. This negates demp it's a different objective but it might be viable, like I was saying it might make the obj too easy but I'm not sure. In a 2v2 I see this being too easy but in 3s I see it being more balanced.

A further idea I've had though is the cave HP dispenser and reduced cover towards the drop from the d side, but you have to be aware that this may alter obj 3 too. Possibly just deleting the turrets too.

If duo losing the .map is true and significant changes are particularly difficult then delayed opening of the obj 1 door and bridge pre extended would be my option.

Re: Hoth 2nd obj

#9
I didn't want to open a new thread for this. I would like to suggest increasing saberdef level to 2 for d jedi. D jedi has always had a very niché role on hoth, and is generally not used very often: it saw some action on 2nd obj, and against rushers on final obj, but that's it. Now with the obj rework I feel the versatility of the class has been once again diminished.

Def level 2 would allow d jedi to be used more frequently against o scouts, which is by far the second most used class, just surpassed by o jedi. Jedi should naturally be a counter for scout, yet on hoth having to play behind cover is way more frequent. It would shift the meta on both sides, and allow for more counter picks.

And remember, def2 would not make d jedi a beast against the walker all of the sudden, since while in the air attacking he is still 1 shot from the enemy scout. I think we could and should definitely give this a try. D jedi also only has push throw, so it would still have to be played really tactically, it would just give it a bit of an edge against o scouts.
cron