Yavin beta (insert large number)

#12
I will post more seriously this time,

Overall, the map is just too large. It takes way to long to walk from spawn to the objectives. Every objective is like D-day with 12-kilometer beaches; you get killed before you can even engage the enemy. With that said, there is also little cover outside. Scout and ojedi are way too powerful.

OBJ1: It isn't bad, just shrink it and make it more defendable. Also, do something with defensive spawn. You spawn, then get raped by ojedi.
OBJ2: I think the size is alright, but on this objective, in particular, I find it difficult to locate people amidst all the greenery. I suggest changing up some of the textures.
OBJ3: Way too big and very boring. I like the idea, but it is poorly executed. It is very hard to defend and if you die on defense the enemy gets the objective by default because you spawn 5 lightyears from the objective.
OBJ4: This objective just isn't siege. If you insist on keeping it, make the time like 8 seconds (same length as cargo hacks) and move spawn points closer together so there is combat.
OBJ5: It is cool, but poorly executed. The rooms are really small and REALLY uninteresting, Nothing to hide behind. Nothing cool. Just rectangles. Make some interesting geometry at least.
OBJ6: Make it a codes objective or a destroy objective, not both. I suggest the latter of the two. I suggest making it "destroy the dragon." Give it some hp and put ist somewhere safe. Kinda like the last two objectives on Urban.

Once the map is playable, we can better assess the classes.

Re: Yavin

#13
I merged three topics about Yavin into one, I think one is enough.

Re: Yavin beta (insert large number)

#14
Alright, here it goes.

Let me just say that I don't actually have huge issues with the objectives now, except for 4th. But I will give you credit, with the area reworked capture point is not as annoying as it was. Still, please replace it.

OBJ1: I think this obj is actually good, except for d spawn. It needs to be a closed off area that o can't harrass, and there needs to be a way out to current d spawn and a way out to the gate area.

OBJ2: I think you could make it slightly smaller, it's not a serious problem for me, but I feel like it's unnecessarily big. Other than that I would also say this obj good.

OBJ3: I love the concept about this obj. But I feel like it's a mistake to put all the buttons into 1 area. It's as ceasar said, if d dies the obj is gone. I think you should make the area smaller, and spread the buttons around, and maybe add like 1 or 2 second capture time? So it's actually defendable. I think this obj can definitely be made a good one, so don't give up on this!

OBJ4: This however, please do give up. I said it already, I'll say it again. Capture Point has no place in jka, especially siege. I could imagine it working in TFFA or something, where if you die you just respawn, possibly far away. But in siege there is a set timer, and if d gets max'd then good bye obj. I also don't think you are going to be able to balance classes around this. Back then, d jedi with defense 3 could just hold it forever, now that it doesn't have def 3, o scout completely destroys him to the point of uselessness. Please don't fall into the sunk cost fallacy, remove it, and make a new obj.

OBJ5: Another concept I really like. I think it needs some slight adjustments though, but can't really point out what to change (very helpful I know). I think a good start would be making sure that the two sides are not mirrored, I can see how that would be referred to as "uninteresting". Do the same thing, but twice! Etc.

OBJ6: Well, actually just removing Ysamaliris from their natural habitat is enough for them to die (See Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn). So, I don't see why we have to deal damage to it! Jokes aside though, the inner areas feel too small, and the outer area is huge. I think you should rework that obj, I just can't see it working like this. Sure, it functions, but just not what I would call a good design. I don't have any issues with having to kill the Ysalamiri afterwards, but it is kinda pointless if you can just demp it from 9999 metres away.

Classes...
Well, I think we can all agree on classes being imbalanced as hell. D jedi is useless, o jedi is uncontested, o scout is way too good and the only way to counter it is by also going scout, and so on. I think ceasar has a point, and it will be easier to balance them once objectives are fixed.

And lastly: remove fog from yavin.
First of all, I bet everyone has cg_weather on 0. So the only person who would see it is you. Which wouldn't be such a huge issue, except without fog, the greenness becomes very dominant, which ends up impairing your vision for no reason, other than lore I guess. If you turn fog back on, the far walls won't appear until you are much closer, so you can see a lot clearer. Sort of, because now there is fog? Yea we get it, yavin had fog in jk2 sp, and cg_weather was only introduced by newmod, but really I think this is one of those cases where practicality should come before principles. I don't think we are going to turn on weather just so we can enjoy yavin more. It might be unfair but that's what it is.

Re: Yavin feedback

#16
Grab was playing it earlier but his desired changes seemed minimal when they need to be drastic.

Re: Yavin feedback

#17
This applies to the b5 version of it.

Outer areas are way too green. And on top of that you used the swamptrooper model twice.. like am I expected to spot those guys???

Objective 1: I think this is probably the best objective the map has to offer. It's just too bad that I can't see a thing because everything is too green, and that you can hide mines underwater, that I guarantee nobody will spot. Also I don't see how spawn camping is not prevented, I think a closed off area is required for this obj.

Objective 2: I think this one is also decent, though I feel like it could be better. I hate how if you are not a jedi, you have to carefully go around the trapdoor when you want to drop down, otherwise you just don't jump high enough to make it.

Objective 3: Oh boy. This. Just why??? This has to be the most imbalanced objective I have personally ever seen in siege. You have to do the "puzzle", and then you have something like 10 seconds? to activate the lever. It is one thing that you have to kill the defenders to just walk onto the buttons, but it will take you so much time, that enemy team can just respawn and attack you again. And the icing on the cake is that you can't just press enter and be done with it, you have to hack the lever. Oh and defense have direct line of sight to it from spawn. This results in the attackers having to wipe out the enemy team twice to complete this objective. The only reason this objective is ever taken is if d screws up big time. Judging by the games I played, completing this objective usually takes up 33%-50% of total time spent.

Objective 4: Control Point does not belong in jka. Every time you try making it work it ends up not working at all. Previously you could just stall forever, now obj is gone if d dies just once. And while the attackers have total freedom about their positioning, defenders have to stay within the highlighted area, with zero cover.

Also just a side note: what the heck is that route from obj4 to obj5. It is not even possible to walk through it in 20 seconds, due to the amount of doors you put there. I mean, I don't really mind that part, it just has zero value as it is now, so if you had some plans with it you should change it.

Objective 5: I think it lacks cover in the inside areas, there is nothing to hide behind in the corridors.

Objective 6: The return time is the reason this is a difficult objective to complete. Just increase it to a normal amount and it should be good. Oh and can you add stairs so I don't have to walk around the entire middle area to get up to the altar? Would greatly appreciate that.

Lastly, class balance. Ugh. This is the first siege map I have ever seen that actually wants you to play tech dps. Like seriously, if you are not running a tech for dps you are not doing the map right. The areas are so huge, and attackers have to cover so much distance. Right now o jedi is not viable because of this. I would really like to expand on class balance but I have only seen scout tech and o assault/d hw being played. So yea doesn't look very balanced.

Re: Yavin feedback

#18
I have huge issues with pretty much every bit of this map. I can't exactly recommend certain changes because there is just another bit of this map that is bad and influences everything like classes or w/e.

Objective 1: To say this is the best objective of the map is not to compliment this objective. It's just a huge open area where eventually O scout picks off D scout at the start so you complete the objective. I think this could be enjoyable with like a mountainous terrain with multiple narrow paths as well as some wider / more open ones.

Objective 2: The same stuff with a different objective. Honestly IDK what would make this better.

I never thought I'd say this but the texturing makes playing these objectives annoying Onasi is right it's just too green.

Objective 3: You must realise how bad this is? This objective was held for 6:30 by a team that consistently died, that consistently played in the wrong place, that consistently allowed progression of the objective, and that had the wrong class setup. For context this is like defending the last objective on Hoth in the CC, constantly letting them in, allowing them to be in the CC for 10 seconds at a time, running scout only, and still managing to hold the objective. Honestly if you competently hold the correct bit of this objective as tech/HW (as we have done and you asked me to let them through) I don't see how they can progress.

There is one way to do this objective that is somehow survive the first spawn with at least 2 attackers left including 1 jedi, have 1 person complete the "puzzle" while the Jedi waits at the back spawn door to get a kill (probably a HW with like 125 HP for some reason that doesn't die to throws) even then if both defenders went to that door the Jedi should get killed 9/10 times, meaning you need 1 defender to forget about the other door or just be useless for a bit.
Onasi wrote: Objective 4: Control Point does not belong in jka. Every time you try making it work it ends up not working at all. Previously you could just stall forever, now obj is gone if d dies just once. And while the attackers have total freedom about their positioning, defenders have to stay within the highlighted area, with zero cover.
Objective 5: You cannot defend the outside area. Defending inside is just a spam room 3 narrow entrances all with low ceilings and there is a spot you can rocket all three areas. I don't even care that much that the places with the falling blocks are uninteresting as Onasi put it it's the run up to that part that is bad good objectives have lots of zones that you can defend, think Hoth codes were you can defend from Codes room, the main area, the shield door / immediate area behind (granted this is more of a panic area defence), and the Codes reception panel room. This objective has one place were you can stand to defend anywhere else is bad positioning and/or recovery defending.

Objective 6: I've changed my mind this is the best objective because I can recommend two easy fixes to make it actually enjoyable.

Respawn of the siege item should be the standard 20 seconds. Encourages team play, incremental progress, adds relevance to the outside area.

You should not have to kill the siege item. Killing the thing is anti-competitive, luck based dross. Say the map is going to be decided within a window of like 10 seconds (this does happen) you complete the only part of the objective that takes skill and teamwork but you are running double Jedi so it's hard to kill the thing the clock ticks down and you lose the map. The other team in the first round placed the thing just before a spawn so one of them changed to tech so they could demp it from spawn. It's just a pointless gimmick that at some point should this map ever be popular will decide a game based on not running a good class to kill the objective instantly.

I've been searching for an analogy for this and I think I have one. You destroy the CC on Hoth which causes a ship to spawn in the hangar in which you must escape. Therefore if the map is a close call you might lose because you take the lift up after spawn to go to the CC and start walking towards it, CC destroyed but there is no one in spawn so you have and extra 10-15 seconds on your time causing you to miss out by 0-5 seconds on a win. The other team completed the CC pretty much as a teammate spawned so it only took them 3 seconds to reach the ship and win the map. This extra pointless rubbish decided the map with nothing but luck involved.

Please remove this feature before it actually influences a game.

As for the actual objective layout I'm not sure maybe it's too narrow in places. But I could live with testing it more as is for now.

Classes: Scout is too prominent. D tech is ridiculous like why does the most useful class for damage on this map (a problem in itself) get bolts too? D Jedi has only the role of forcing people to play scout/Jedi which they were already because they are the useful classes, ATM D Jedi is only good for killing O tech when it's left unprotected. Health pack drops seems a bit daft. Why does the wookie get extra start HP? With D tech the way it is Bactas should come as standard for O (I honestly don't know if they do I've only played scout tech Jedi on O). Please stop making maps with two of the same models.

Re: Yavin feedback

#19
Onasi wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:43 pm
Outer areas are way too green. And on top of that you used the swamptrooper model twice.. like am I expected to spot those guys???

This is called camouflage. ;) Just use
cg_forceSiegeModel
.

Onasi wrote: Objective 4: Control Point does not belong in jka. Every time you try making it work it ends up not working at all. Previously you could just stall forever, now obj is gone if d dies just once. And while the attackers have total freedom about their positioning, defenders have to stay within the highlighted area, with zero cover.

I agree completely with Onasi, this is not Overwatch.
Image

Yavin...Epsilon Version Now?

#20
Before it is all said and done, we will have exhausted the Greek alphabet. Made a new topic to annoy grab.

OBJ1: PLease. Please. Add a bunker or some form of ENCLOSED cover for defensive spawn.

Supplemental info: en·close
verb
past tense: enclosed; past participle: enclosed
1.
surround or close off on all sides.

Just in case we aren't clear about the meaning of the word enclosed. This issue has been raised before, and Grab's solution was a big ugly rock. Hopefully, this clears that up. It is almost impossible to defend this objective. I haven't seen it defended for more than 1 minute. This objective desperately needs some form of enclosed combat. I don't think I have ever advocated for a bottleneck, but this objective needs something to induce combat. As it stands, offense has infinite attack angles and, as such, defense can do little more than sit idly by.

OBJ2: For the love of god, please level the ground around the hack. It took me 5 tries to reach the damn thing. Even with fore models, I still can't see shit. Overall, the objective isn't awful. However, I will suggest enclosing the hack in a bunker or something.

OBJ3: After having played this objective 3 times, I still have no idea how to solve your "puzzle." Once the lever is exposed, it should not be re-enclosed. Make the buttons state buttons rather than push-buttons. Class reworking will help this immensely.

OBJ4: Originally, I liked the idea. But now...get rid of it.

OBJ5: AGAIN. Please, make this objective defendable. I said put cover in the rooms. What was your answer? Two fucking boxes per room. Wow! How creative! Maybe add shields or blast doors before the crystals? Something. Please. This objective is not defendable. Once an offender enters the room, the objective is lost.

OBJ6: Just extend the respawn time. AND. WHY in hell would you make red on and green off. Flip this please,

CLASSES: We have been over this 999999999 times. Just fix them.
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