Hoth is a terrible map

#1
There. I said it. It is borderline unplayable in 2s, and is just tolerable in 3s.

Like people rage at bespin, and sure, it has its flaws but guess what. Bespin doesn't actually want you to rush every single objective it has. Sure, rushing objectives is a good play that should be rewarding, however, hoth actually punishes you for a failed rush, instead of rewarding a successful one. Because that is the easiest and cleanest way by far to complete an objective. Rushing it.

Bespin also does not have a d tech with a shield in her pocket. Funnily enough, d tech is still the most annoying class on bespin, but I'd 100% fight against bespin d tech than hoth d tech. If you get unlucky and fail to rush an objective on hoth, you are now subject to getting demp'd from across the map by d tech. Who, most of the time, will be also standing on a shield, preserving it. No other map gives d tech this much game changing potential. None. And while shield holding is not inherently bad, as it is pretty tolerable on nar shaddaa for example, on hoth it just makes the game revolve entirely around what d tech is doing.

Because you actually want to kill tech on hoth. You can't just play around, keep maxing her teammate, and eventually get past the shield. There is a walker on the map, which is, in my opinion, the single worst thing on any siege map I have ever played. It can be frozen constantly. That is extremely annoying even on the first objective, where you have to go through a door, but at least, that's managable. On the third obj however, it truly becomes the worst thing ever. You need to shoot the generator, but you just can't. Period. Full stop. As long as d tech is alive you will not get the objective. But, since d tech can just sk at the pefect time and literally respawn next to the walker, you need to max her. This oddly reminds me of a map, where, in order to win, you had to max the entire enemy team, so you could make your way to the x-wing with the codes..

And so driving the walker is a chore, and you know it. You are frozen, you move at 50% speed, controlling the vehicle is awkward, and you cannot shoot. Nobody likes driving. Absolutely nobody. Certain unlucky people end up doing it anyways, because someone has to. But. If I'm wrong, and for some reason, driving the walker is something that people really enjoy, please let me know. I'll be more than happy to let others drive. In fact, just say so, and you have my word, that you can drive the damn thing every time we are playing together.

Also have I mentioned that d tech is usually positioned all the way back, or, at a choke point. Which means, just getting to her is going to be difficult, and you are going to take a lot of damage. Combine this with the fact that demp is instant, an aoe, and can freeze enemies, and you can perhaps understand what my issue is. And once again, unlike on nar, if you kill her at the wrong time you are screwed, because she will respawn super close to the objective and just place an other shield, therefore resetting the whole procedure of walking through demps, and an enemy guy, in a not very large room. On nar the shield is used to slow the attackers down, on hoth the shield actually becomes a mini objective: "destroy the shield". Then you can resume doing the real obj.

Also, given that there is a tech with a shield at all times except on last obj, that means that demo will not be played until the very end. And so people are forced to play jedi/scout/tech most of the time, with the occasional assault. And the only thing o tech can do is demp and pistol, which means the other class will be responsible for getting kills and doing everything in 2s. Before the rise of bespin d jedi, bespin actually had more class diversity, by simply allowing people to play more than half of the available classes. And d jedi was equal to hoth d jedi pre saber rework. And even with broken d jedi, I bet class diveristy is still better on bespin than on hoth.

And then there are other, absolutely dumb gameplay mechanics on hoth, like doors not opening even if you are standing 1 cm from them, like having to use lifts in the process of completing objectives, like having 10s hacktime panels to open alt routes, like having a giant pit inbetween o spawn and d spawn, like d tech being able to heal panels in the command centre, as if it wasn't hard enough for o to get there and deal damage, if they didn't manage to rush it, and so on.

Let's be honest, if grab made a map that contained all these things I just listed, he would get laughed at, and raged at. Boost obj is nothing compared to hoth 2nd obj, and codes obj is nothing compared to hoth cc obj.

The only reason hoth got played back then, is because it competed against maps like korriban, and desert (lol). And while duo's version did improve it beyond measure, he did that with the mindset of keeping as much of original hoth as possible. And original hoth sucks.

/endrant

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#3
The biggest issue with Hoth, IMO, is the feast-or-famine situation with rushing the 2nd obj. I already made a thread proposing some solutions for this (even light-touch ones like just delaying the door opening by 1 second) and people voted against it. Apparently people like the feast-or-famine nature of the bridge rush.

Demp and shield are basically required because O jedi is really really good due to mobility/saber block/mind trick/pullthrow, and would have a really easy time completing objs without demp and shield getting in the way. The shield is also the only 100% counter to mind trick; if there weren't any shields, for example on Codes/Hangar you could just demp the mines, mind trick and invisibly breeze by the enemies to capture the obj. In other words I think without demp/shield it would be insanely easy for the offense. Due to this jedi/tech meta it's no wonder that there are a few sidelined classes, such as "O demo before hangar".

There is room for tweaks IMO such as having the defense spawn in a more separate area at the 2nd/3rd obj, so they are positionally punished for dying/SKing. Hangar hack could obviously be shortened and opened up to more classes. I also have other more radical ideas such as changing shield to a temporary 5 second forcefield that defense can enable by using a hack or something.

Regarding the walker objs, I personally like them because they require teamwork on both sides -- offense has to have people supporting the driver by taking out jan/gunners, and defense has to work together to kill the walker since jan can't damage it and gunners/jedi can't freeze it.

I like Hoth despite its flaws. But again look at the thread I made about bridge rush, people don't want you to fuck with it.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#5
Comparing Hoth to Bespin is blasphemous. I think a lot of the Hoth "problems" would be resolved if we were to revert to the old (and more conservative) tech rule(s). Tech was NEVER allowed to sk. EVER. Obviously, the major reason for this rule was to prevent shield spam; however, the secondary consequence of this rule was much further reaching. Without going into the reasons, I believe we can all agree that a firm no tech sk rule adds more strategy to the game; I realize I am *in part* to blame for today's tech sk rules, as I was one of the first to begin regularly sking as tech to avoid the max. However, I do feel we should revert to the old rule of NO tech sk EVER (save after an objective). Hell, I can remember when tech sk after an objective was frowned upon. If you think tech sk isn't op, then you are sadly mistaken. Even with the hard-coded anti-shield spam, tech sk is a HUGE defensive boon. Again if we belay the conversation as to why, as that much should be obvious, I think the more conservative tech sk rules raised the IQ required to play the game.

I vote we supplement the anti shield-spam code to include sk prevention.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#6
ceasar wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:06 pm
Comparing Hoth to Bespin is blasphemous. I think a lot of the Hoth "problems" would be resolved if we were to revert to the old (and more conservative) tech rule(s). Tech was NEVER allowed to sk. EVER. Obviously, the major reason for this rule was to prevent shield spam; however, the secondary consequence of this rule was much further reaching. Without going into the reasons, I believe we can all agree that a firm no tech sk rule adds more strategy to the game; I realize I am *in part* to blame for today's tech sk rules, as I was one of the first to begin regularly sking as tech to avoid the max. However, I do feel we should revert to the old rule of NO tech sk EVER (save after an objective). Hell, I can remember when tech sk after an objective was frowned upon. If you think tech sk isn't op, then you are sadly mistaken. Even with the hard-coded anti-shield spam, tech sk is a HUGE defensive boon. Again if we belay the conversation as to why, as that much should be obvious, I think the more conservative tech sk rules raised the IQ required to play the game.

I vote we supplement the anti shield-spam code to include sk prevention.
You have done that yourself.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#7
Since I fulfil the two dullest roles on Hoth's outside I must say I don't like it, on defence: "I guess I'll spam right click that should do it!" on offence: "I'll just hold W and spam right click while someone doesn't help that'll be fun!". People fail the bridge rush way more now, especially you Onasi I don't think you are jumping enough. So I'd agree insofar as the first three objectives are poor but the rest of it is actually quite fun preferably with 6 competent players though. I'd much rather play a 4 objective inside Hoth, the only change I'd make would be that armour generator at the codes which severely punishes the attack for being bad it's like getting an extra player for going a goal up. Also when your teammate is in the AT-ST on the 1st objective playing Jedi is pretty much always more useful than scout, it can be quite hard to hit the guy destroying the walker especially if they are on the other side of it to you but if you are Jedi you can quite easily keep them away from it and pull throw easily as they don't have a scout. So yeah go Jedi you pricks.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#8
Black wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:32 pm
Since I fulfil the two dullest roles on Hoth's outside I must say I don't like it, on defence: "I guess I'll spam right click that should do it!" on offence: "I'll just hold W and spam right click while someone doesn't help that'll be fun!". People fail the bridge rush way more now, especially you Onasi I don't think you are jumping enough. So I'd agree insofar as the first three objectives are poor but the rest of it is actually quite fun preferably with 6 competent players though. I'd much rather play a 4 objective inside Hoth, the only change I'd make would be that armour generator at the codes which severely punishes the attack for being bad it's like getting an extra player for going a goal up. Also when your teammate is in the AT-ST on the 1st objective playing Jedi is pretty much always more useful than scout, it can be quite hard to hit the guy destroying the walker especially if they are on the other side of it to you but if you are Jedi you can quite easily keep them away from it and pull throw easily as they don't have a scout. So yeah go Jedi you pricks.
You are 1000% wrong about two things in this post.

1. If you're just brainlessly spamming right click on the walker, you have no clue how to properly demp. You should be minmaxing your hits on the walker to be only freezing the walker as much as needed, and dealing as much DPS onto non-walker-drivers as possible. I either frag or force SKs all the time by doing this, which allows more breathing room for your gunner to land hits on the walker. This is how pro players play support in every game's esports; they are basically a DPS that happens to also fill a support role, rather than the other way around. You should be full charging the non-drivers and just be tapping the walker the minimum required amount.

2. Jedi is absolutely not superior to scout at the first obj. If the jan is competent and is demping the non-driver(s), the jedi will bite the dust within 2-3 demps (or even 1 if you're lucky). Just the other day I fullcharged Onasi@jedi and killed him in ONE hit while still keeping the walker frozen with mouse2. If he had been scout, he would have tanked it, bacta'd, and probably shot back at me and forced me behind cover. Even if the jedi doesn't die, he can be frozen so that he can't saberthrow or push/pull; scout can't be frozen and has 75 more HP with the bacta. Also as scout you can damage the gunners from very far away where you're safe from being killed; as jedi you need to be up close where if you miss an ST you can get blobbed to death in one shot, and you can even take damage from getting splashed off demp mouse2 shots hitting the walker.

P.S. Fucking drop cans without me having to ask for it.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#9
So I guess I'll post something constructive as well, instead of just ranting.
ceasar wrote: Comparing Hoth to Bespin is blasphemous.
Some people think bespin is the worst map, I think it's hoth. Comparison makes perfect sense!

ceasar wrote: I think a lot of the Hoth "problems" would be resolved if we were to revert to the old (and more conservative) tech rule(s). Tech was NEVER allowed to sk. EVER.
This is something randir has also mentioned to me, when discussing hoth. I'd be willing to give this a try, but that's coming from someone who generally never plays tech, and I can see how this rule could become problematic. Especially concerned about how well this rule would translate into the current rock-paper-scissors class changing meta.

Black wrote: So I'd agree insofar as the first three objectives are poor but the rest of it is actually quite fun preferably with 6 competent players though. I'd much rather play a 4 objective inside Hoth, the only change I'd make would be that armour generator at the codes which severely punishes the attack for being bad it's like getting an extra player for going a goal up.
This is something I have thought about mentioning in my post as well, but I didn't feel like being too objective at the moment. I would probably enjoy hoth waaaaay more if there were no outside objectives, although it's hard to say for sure. If I had to sum up the things that make me hate the map with passion, the majority of my points would definitely be about the outside objectives though.

In fact:
  • Walker is awkward to move, and is constantly frozen.
  • Obj2 needs to be rushed, or it becomes a way too difficult obj.
  • Obj3 is terrible for the driver, because as long as tech is alive, he will not be able to shoot, but since tech can just sk and respawn literally in front of the walker, she needs to be max'd.
  • Due to the layout of hoth, most obj allow d tech to be standing on a shield, far in the back, or at a chokepoint, and thus she gets to demp freely at the attackers, in rooms not very large to begin with (dying to demp as o jedi in cc when tech is all the way down at the lift anyone?)
  • Final obj also needs to be rushed, to a point, where d sometimes just allows o to get the previous obj, just to prevent rushing, or o will refuse to get the previous obj, in hopes of being able to rush final obj.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how driving the walker could be made a better experience, that would be plausible, and doable. I don't suppose we could just copy the movement physics of the AT-ST from Star Wars: Battlefront (2015)..? Maybe adjust the layout just slightly at the first obj so you could walk up to the turrets without sticking to 1 tiny path? As if moving at 50% speed, and not being able to turn without backpedalling wouldn't be annoying enough.

Obj2 is truly horrible.
Duo wrote: The biggest issue with Hoth, IMO, is the feast-or-famine situation with rushing the 2nd obj. I already made a thread proposing some solutions for this (even light-touch ones like just delaying the door opening by 1 second) and people voted against it. Apparently people like the feast-or-famine nature of the bridge rush.
I would say the current feast-or-famine situation is really just a consequence of obj2 being poorly thought out. I do remember your thread, and iirc people voted against it, because at least when you successfully rush the obj you do not have to spend time actually doing it (lol). As I said, having a giant pit inbetween o and d spawn, or rather, in between o spawn and the objective, is just terrible map design. It forces o to run a jedi, because that is the only class able to get across to begin with, but of course, jedi will be subject to getting demp'd from across the map. And unlike on nar, where d tech just stands in the open, on hoth she gets a nice little bunker with a tiny window on it, to make killing her more difficult.
Duo wrote: If the jan is competent and is demping the non-driver(s), the jedi will bite the dust within 2-3 demps (or even 1 if you're lucky). Just the other day I fullcharged Onasi@jedi and killed him in ONE hit while still keeping the walker frozen with mouse2.
So in other words, 1 defence player is able to damage an o jedi badly, or kill him, while keeping the walker permanently frozen. Yes, it does require skill, but one d player just countered the entire enemy team in a 2s. I know you wrote this about the first obj, but I feel it applies to all outside objs. In my opinion, it's just too much game changing potential in the hands of a class, let alone the very class that uses the least skillful weapon in the game. I do not think this is a good, or even fun design; certainly not for the o jedi.

But of course, there are other alternative, albeit a bit more time consuming ways of crossing the pit. Or are there? The left route is closed off, and you need o tech to spend 10! seconds hacking it. I mean seriously, half a spawn, where defence has to conveniently forget about the existence of an enemy player. I would say it never gets hacked in 2s, and I'd wager it doesn't get hacked in about at least 90% of the 3s games I play. That leaves the cave, which is a long route, and is easily defendable. Therefore, o is left without any alternatives, they need a jedi jumping across the pit, or they will be stuck on that obj.

I can think of quite a few things to make that obj better, some are more radical, some barely change anything: (not that I have hopes of any of this being implemented)
  • My absolute dream change would be just having that stupid bridge extended by default. Yes, it would be a radical change, but that would provide an actual route for o, one that does not require having force jump. It would still be easily defendable by d, just think of how much damage can be inflicted upon the walker, when it crosses the bridge. It would open up other options, like running scout/assault for example, which is something you would normally run against a d tech (it happens a lot on urban). So the hack could instead lower a forcefield, that is protecting the generator, so it doesn't become shootable, before obj2 is taken. Also yes, the walker would be able to cross the bridge this way before obj2 is taken.. and then stand there idly, constantly frozen, not doing a single thing.
  • This one is a relatively simple change, but one that could go a long way. Remove the tech requirement from Ion Control hack, and make it shorter (like 5s or something). This way, when jedi jumps across, his teammate, a scout for example, could be pressuring the enemy team, or go for the hack, and open up a valuable alt route. 10s hacktime is riddiculous, regardless of map/objective, and the class requirement also doesn't make sense. Over time we kept removing these from other maps (cargo), and I see no reason why we shouldn't do so on hoth.
  • This change is more of a QoL one, but lower the health of the rocks in the cave. Keep the first one if you insist, from offence perspective, as to not make it easier for assault to get the generator with e-web, but lower the rest. As I said, defending this route is easy, it's very obvious when o goes for this, and on top of all this, the majority of the route is blocked by those destructible rocks, making the route have even less space to manouver in, as if it wasn't easy enough already for d to defend. They also have lots of health, so it takes ages for a scout to destroy them, nerfing their health could make that route a bit more easier to take.
Duo wrote: There is room for tweaks IMO such as having the defense spawn in a more separate area at the 2nd/3rd obj, so they are positionally punished for dying/SKing.
I would love to see this happen as well, maybe make a little spawn area behind the bunker, but I'm open for anything. Right now I feel there are no downsides of sk'ing at that obj for d, ever. While o gets to spawn miles away, and will have to slowly walk all the way back.

I think people would be willing to revisist the idea of an anti rush for obj2, if there were multiple ways of being able to cross, instead of just doing the same thing over and over again, while getting demp'd from across the map.

Now, I also have problems coming up with a suggestion that would make it harder for d tech to demp attackers from across the map, not without drastic layout changes sadly. I think the most reasonable way of dealing with that would be making other classes more desirable to be played, that can not be demp'd. So I would like to suggest giving golan to the default anti tech gunner class: o assault. This is less about buffing the class, and more about making it more viable on hoth.
  • Golan would be extremely useful for taking out shields quickly. O demo is not played, so you can't throw mines at it, and without it, you are left using E11, or disruptor, to damage it. Golan, on the other hand, would be an excellent high damage dealing weapon, that could be used for that.
  • I feel offence really needs area denial potential, especially considering d has so many options. Assault and demo can mine, assault has golan, and tech has a shield! Offence on the other hand has nothing, so giving them golan could go a long way at forcing d to play a bit more carefully. And no, golan spam would not be viable. As I've already said: if you are randomly spamming alt golan to deal damage you are doing it the wrong way, and you would be better off using any other weapon. Also, considering there is a d tech standing on a shield, I think we can all agree mindless spam would just lead to d tech dying a lot without getting max'd, which is not something o would want.

Final obj. I don't know, this one is also not really well thought out in my opinion. When people purposefully give up the previous obj just to ensure they can defend here, you know something is not right. Unfortunately, with this layout I have no idea how things could be made better. At the very least, can we please make panels not healable by d tech? Also lower the hacktime of hangar hack, and remove class requirement. Seriously, I think throughout the 3.5 years I have been playing siege, I have seen that panel hacked once. In a probably very stacked game.

Duo wrote: I like Hoth despite its flaws. But again look at the thread I made about bridge rush, people don't want you to fuck with it.
Yeah I can understand liking something, while still being aware of its issues. I probably feel the same way about bespin, and I don't often complain this much about hoth. But what really frustrates me is, say what you want about bespin, at least it's changing. Sure, there was a timeframe where it was "finished", but grab is back to adjusting it, and while things may not happen as quick as some people would want them to, they do happen. I think, for example, the latest version of bespin looks really promising (barring visibility issues). On hoth though, nothing ever changes, even if some of the flaws are really obvious. So I'm stuck getting frustrated by the same things over and over again, with zero promise of anything ever being done.

Re: Hoth is a terrible map

#10
My issue with disallowing tech SK is that it's another arbitrary rule that only applies to one class, and I tend to dislike that kind of thing. Csr was the main force behind removing the SK rule because he played Jan like a straight up DPS and SK'd without re-shielding; prior to that, tech SK and tech shield were one and the same in most people's minds. Csr's play style called into question the tech SK rule because if she doesn't have shields it's a completely different issue whether or not she can SK. I would prefer simply reworking the map to disallowing tech sk. Tech sk is allowed on nar and doesn't really have issues there.

I think that more positional disadvantage for defense's spawnpoints would alleviate a lot of your issues with the walker being frozen. Let Jan SK freely, but she's much more punished for doing so by being out of position to freeze you for a while. Jan will SK less often and thus stay out where she's vulnerable, and offense will feel like they are able to kill her more often without her just respawning 1m away. You would be frozen less overall.

I can create a "Hoth 3" with more drastic changes if there is interest. As Onasi mentioned, with Hoth 2 I wanted to stay very faithful to OG Hoth and just mainly fix the spam chokepoints such as hangar midget door and infirmary entrance.
cron